Curse

moriz · Sep 14, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

wanna see a trainwreck in motion? look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrG8sZX5Fhc

Lux Aeterna · Sep 14, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

wanna see a trainwreck in motion? look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrG8sZX5Fhc

Luxons go through the canyon, Kurzicks go over the hill. Doing this puts you in a good position to assist teams at mid (Etnaran) or take res after it clears (Grenz).

You should never ever ever ever ever commit to a fight before you can visually inspect the other team because for all you know they're three KMD and a rawr and have Ego calling telespikes and no matter how good you are you're going to be respawning before you've even done damage. In a world where you can't beat everyone, it's never a good idea to fight unless you know you will win.

Note: going over the hill counts as committing to a fight, because it leads to a headon collision with the Kurz team. I only do this if I've seen them, and intend to destroy them quickly (if the other Luxon team went over the hill on Grenz, I'll often lend assistance which puts the Kurzicks into an 8v4 teamwipe). Additionally, the hill route is a much poorer strategic situation than the canyon.

Also, wildly pinging the map and drawing big arrows helps with getting your team out of a situation, for example it's often easy to save an intelligent Mo/A this way. It's even possible to engage/ harass a tougher group, then break engagement just as your team begins to get outpressured, retreating to a safer position without taking casualties.

But you, as an ex-Kurzick, do not think about it this much.

moriz · Sep 14, 2009, 04:09 AM // 04:09

that's because i'm one step ahead of you: the opposing side can easily pick the canyon, and i'll be forced into a fight regardless. not to mention, there's a good chance that TWO teams will go for the canyon, leaving me fighting 4v8.

as the defending side, going through the canyon is a losing proposition. the pathing ensures that i'll be running for a long time before i can assist the center (the eastern team is much better positioned to assist), i'll run into the risk of being doubleteamed as mentioned above, and i'll be running the long way to the elite elementalist shrine.

it's very hard to not engage in a fight if i pick the western side, simply because the map is a dice roll on that side. the best thing to do is going in guns blazing and try to overwhelm my opposition (if any) with the terrain advantage of the hill. after all, the attacking side will be charging uphill most of the time on the western side.

Lux Aeterna · Sep 14, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the opposing side can easily pick the canyon, and i'll be forced into a fight regardless. not to mention, there's a good chance that TWO teams will go for the canyon, leaving me fighting 4v8.

as the defending side, going through the canyon is a losing proposition. the pathing ensures that i'll be running for a long time before i can assist the center (the eastern team is much better positioned to assist), i'll run into the risk of being doubleteamed as mentioned above, and i'll be running the long way to the elite elementalist shrine.

Noooooooooooooo.

There's a good reason why Luxons typically go through the canyon on both Grenz and Etnaran.

Do I need to explain? Or would you rather go over the hill?

moriz · Sep 14, 2009, 04:18 AM // 04:18

going through the canyon is stupid in almost every instance. it won't guarantee that you'll avoid contact, and you've effectively taken the long way to virtually every other shrine.

Reverend Dr · Sep 15, 2009, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Why would I play PvP if I want to avoid fighting against other players? Isn't the point of PvP to see who can play better?

moriz · Sep 15, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

and yet, iQ made it past EvIL in the GWFC semifinals by not fighting them for 30 minutes.

no, the point of pvp is to defeat the other team using whatever (legal) way necessary. in both gvg and ab, it is sometimes prudent to avoid combat. after all, both arenas feature an overarching goal that has nothing to do with the other team. the trick is knowing when.

BlackSephir · Sep 15, 2009, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Why would I play PvP if I want to avoid fighting against other players? Isn't the point of PvP to see who can play better?

In the case of AB it's to see who's better at running around and beating the crap out of NPC with horrible AI.

Lux Aeterna · Sep 15, 2009, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Why would I play PvP if I want to avoid fighting against other players? Isn't the point of PvP to see who can play better?

When I played with you you tended to be very suicidal, rushing multiple enemy teams and fighting to the death etc.
Not that it was bad. (though I wish your monks had been able to take care of my primal rage better, so I'd have spent less time respawning and more time fighting suicidally)

But point is, I fight intelligently, rather than whenever there's an opportunity to fight.
As far as starting order goes (through canyon vs. over hill), I think it's partly why Kurzicks lose so much.

It's like this --

Etnaran: Kurzick Ele shrine group goes over hill to Mesmer shrine, or fights Luxon group coming through canyon near their elite ele shrine. Kurzick center group goes up hill straight to Rez shrine, engaging center Luxon group, usually losing at a disadvantage.

Grenz: Luxon center group and Luxon left group go through canyon (sometimes they fight on the hill, but not usually), splitting to Necro shrine and Rez after the center Kurzick groups leave it. 99% of Luxon ABers know that rushing the Rez shrine straight at start is a terrible move, this is why the non-retarded ones run around back and take it immediately when the Kurzick group goes to cap (Kurzick side does not do this on Etnaran).

If you study strategy moves, you'll find that of these moves the Kurzick side invariably starts with the worst -- often losing a team to gank at the start, then losing or failing to take the vital Rez shrine and making sure to teamwipe along the way.

As for picking whether to take the Canyon route or note -- On Grenz, you can always see which direction the Kurzick groups are coming from and assess their strengths before choosing whether or not to fight, but on Etnaran you can't see the opposing group before choosing which way to go so it's best to take a route which does not commit you to combat. If you go over the hill on Etnaran then find that the Kurz side is stronger, it puts you in an isolated spot where you can't either escape easily or help your team - my teams often take the hill route on Grenz and make sure to stomp the dervishes, smite monk, and minion master that form a balanced Kurzick team.

If you want to open with fighting on Etnaran, it's far wiser to rush down the canyon and assist the center team when Kurzick groups attempt to rush them.

Judge Nl · Sep 15, 2009, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

99% of Luxon ABers know that rushing the Rez shrine straight at start is a terrible move, this is why the non-retarded ones run around back and take it immediately when the Kurzick group goes to cap (Kurzick side does not do this on Etnaran).

With Grenz when i am in, what i call "a heavy team" i sometimes do that tactic, mostly when we end up in a 4 vs 4 situation we cap that shrine & beat the other team without casualties. Wouldn't recommend that tactic without speedboost & heavy's though. Arriving on res after kurzicks capped it can be hazardous to the team's health.

Bobby2 · Sep 15, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Strafing

But point is, I fight intelligently, rather than whenever there's an opportunity to fight.

Does this include the time when you decided to solo the Grenz Necro shrine (PRaaaage Swoooord) while the rest of us were still fighting over res?

(yes you lived, but that's because Huw's a nice guy and pities Leeroys)

Lux Aeterna · Sep 15, 2009, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Probably teamed up with an unemployed monk (Huw?)? I have no memory of this. It would be unusual for me to leave a good mobfight to go cap unless there was a pressing reason for it...

I should probably play Prage sword more.

Sephir: If the AB NPCs even had AI it would be pve, as it is they simply stand around to make shrine capping more complicated.

moriz · Sep 15, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

the center group on attacking side going through the canyon is a terrible idea. they run the risk of being ganked at two points: right as they go in, and right before they run up the ramp to the rez shrine. not to mention, they are taking the LONG way to the rez shrine and will be effectively trading shrines with the opposing center group, assuming they don't run into opposition en route.

the smart move would be to either charge straight up to the rez shrine if you think you can win in a slugfest, or wait right under the hill for the opposing team to charge down, then nuke the shit out of them as they try to squeeze through the narrow chokepoint. if they go the other way, then just run up the ramp and start capping before that team reaches your shrine.

Reverend Dr · Sep 15, 2009, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

When I played with you you

huh? Sounds about right though. With the resurrection times so low in AB, it is more often than not better to forgo fighting intellegently (within reason, don't solo rush a huge group, but 4 man vs mob and war+monk vs 4 are reasonable in this venture) in favor of throwing more meat into the grinder.

But the point I was getting at is right at the start of the AB maps when you have 1 team of 4 on each side squaring off. There is no mis-match. There is no team with an advantage (unless you gimped your team by bring assassin promise nukers). There is very little reason not to engage. Then you say:

Quote:

three KMD and a rawr and have Ego calling telespikes and no matter how good you are you're going to be respawning before you've even done damage.

You find out your opponent is better, but rather than make an attempt to improve yourself, lets just quit. Because if you are going to be running away from them the entire game, then you are going to lose. This is what I'm objecting to.

Lux Aeterna · Sep 16, 2009, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the center group on attacking side going through the canyon is a terrible idea. they run the risk of being ganked at two points: right as they go in, and right before they run up the ramp to the rez shrine. not to mention, they are taking the LONG way to the rez shrine and will be effectively trading shrines with the opposing center group, assuming they don't run into opposition en route.

Teams going through the canyon never get ganked unless the opposing side is extremely aggressive. It's common for a cripshot ranger to attempt a snare on one of your people, but with a decent monk and speedbuffs there's no problem at all. 4v4 or 4v8 is hardly a "gank", it's common for two Luxon teams to be mixed running through the canyon under party speedbuffs.

You only go for the rez shrine once the Kurz clear off it to cap by Lux base. It's possible to fight them for it, but generally you end up losing badly if you try to rush straight in especially with the group from the Mesmer shrine joining in. As was said, you don't do that without a team of heavies, but still you only want to go 4v4 because anything more and they start respawning before you take the shrine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

You find out your opponent is better

And avoid direct confrontation until I can strategically crush them at a later time, just ask Mr Kisses and that monk from uP's GvG team.

This basically goes for any well constructed guild team I'm not sure my group could beat 4v4 -- avoid them and cap or fight lesser groups, wait till they fight an allied group, rush in and stomp them with greater numbers.
It's brutal, but such is the price we pay for chasing anybody skilled off the Kurzick side.

Although I must admit, I've never won with a full team of KMD on the other side.

shem · Sep 16, 2009, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Why would you not do everything in your power to fight 5v4 with the elite elementalist? Go through the canyon to avoid the other team? That's gotta be the worst thing I've ever heard.

moriz · Sep 16, 2009, 05:47 AM // 05:47

indeed. the smartest choice is to take the elite ele, wait just beyond the shrine to see which side they come out, and plow into them. all things being equal, the ele will almost always tip the balance in your favour.